Building Healthy Society

Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Hare Hare. So, Hare Krishna, I am very happy to speak in front of all of you. I am sorry for a little misunderstanding. I was not informed that this is going to be the topic of my presentation. I assumed that there will be some other topic of my presentation. But I can speak on this topic without maybe extra preparations. I'll try to share my realizations about this. So I'll chant one mantra from Shri Matbhagavatam. So let me start this little lecture with presenting the problem which I can see the challenge which our society is facing now. We all know that by the will of the Lord and by the inevitable force of time, the generation of direct Srila Prabhupada's disciples are departing from this planet, going to some other destinations according to their particular desire and achievements. And very soon we will be without guidance of those people who directly heard from Srila Prabhupada and moreover who felt his heart, who really were trained by him. I was fortunate enough to have a lot of close association with many direct Prabhupada's disciples and a few of them trained me and I know how strict Srila Prabhupada was in different regards, especially about etiquette, about the cleanliness. But now what we are having, we have many people who didn't go through ashram training, who had some theoretical knowledge of some courses, maybe Bhakti Shastri or now Bhakti Vaibhava, but did not have really much personal training. And we know that many gurus, they don't have really opportunity to train their disciples personally. And the understanding of philosophy becomes more theoretical. The mood is changing because the mood of complete, total, irrevocable surrender, which was very much prevalent among the disciples of Srila Prabhupada, which Srila Prabhupada instilled in their heart very firmly, this mood is vanishing. It's unfortunately fact... Okay, sorry, somebody just called me. So it's unfortunately a fact. And in the meantime, ISKCON is, I would say, at least superficially very successful in certain areas of the world, especially in India and many other countries. This con is really gaining popularity, becoming more and more recognized. And that creates another set of problems because we will become more and more like a kind of traditional religion. I was once speaking with one Indian leader who said that Indian leaders, they have a formula of success and this formula of success in India is called SRI-JI. SRI-JI means guest house, Govindas and Guru. If you have this SRI-JI you are doomed to be successful. you are more or less destined for success. If you have good guest house and guru is there and you can always, you know, sell your goods behind the back of the guru. And if Govindes is working nicely, then, you know, it's a success. Is it a success? That's a big question in my mind. And was it really what Srila Prabhupada wanted us to do? Would he be satisfied with these external criteria of success without really internal transformation, which is the real success? Actually, unfortunately again, due to certain cultural traditions firmly established in this cone, we measure our success by some criteria which is not necessarily the best criteria of success. we usually measure our success by some external things which is okay and Srila Prabhupada was definitely stressing these external criteria number of books number of new members number of life members that's all right but ultimately the most important criteria which is much more difficult to measure is how the internal transformation is taking place. Whether people who are coming to our society are becoming pure devotees, whether they have this ideal very firmly established in their heart or they are just satisfied by coming to Sunday Feasts and taking parts in our kirtans and even kirtan melas. Because all these tendencies, very alarming tendencies are going on that, first of all, we're becoming little superficial in our approach. Okay, sorry. I'm traveling tomorrow and there are so many arrangements which I have to do. Anyway, so that's the question which we have to ask ourselves if we are honest. Srila Prabhupada definitely wanted to have a society which transforms all the people who join this con and which will ultimately be able to transform the whole society. And if we are not capable of really transforming the hearts of people who are joining, if people are more or less remaining in the same place, the same space where they were before, by externally changing some few signs like putting on tilak or every now and then wearing dhoti, then definitely it's not what Śrīla Prabhupāda wanted us to do. Śrīla Prabhupāda, his claim, which is formulated very boldly in the first purpose of his skon, for the first time in the history of humanity to give people the understanding of spiritual science and to push them into this spiritual search and help them to transform. So that's the real criteria of success. how we are transforming our hearts through the practice of Krishna Bhakti and how we are helping others to transform their hearts. What unfortunately we can see in our society is that people are coming to ISKCON and they think, of course it's a very generalized statement it may not be true in 100% cases it's probably not true in many cases but still nevertheless the tendency is there that people think that I joined this con and it's a good society beautiful philosophy nice curtains very tasty prasadam, good people. And that's it. I made my choice and this choice which I made was the only choice which I have to do. The rest will happen automatically. Again and again and again, Srila Prabhupada, he repeated this word automatically, but we should understand what does it mean. Automatically does not mean mechanically. We misuse this concept of automatic process of Krishna consciousness. Krishna consciousness is Krishna consciousness. It basically means that while joining this con, we're joining this flow of Krishna bhakti where we still have to face choices every day. To transform our heart, we have to make proper choices practically every day, every moment. what do I choose? Do I choose Maya or do I choose Krishna? That's the intensity of spiritual life. Every time when I take beats, every time when I chant Krishna or whatever, every time I give lecture. But the tendency, again, is to become a mechanical follower of some sort of religion. Recently, I was speaking with people who are doing BI work. And one person from Harvard University, Indian by nationality, he says, you speak about bhakti as a science, but as far as I'm concerned, I can see in our temple, people are more or less joining ISKCON as yet another religion. And that's a big problem, and we have to be very clear about this problem. Do we want to become yet another religion or we want to transform the society or we want to create a society which is transforming people? Because why this topic about creating healthy society or forming the healthy society is so important? because this is one of very important mechanisms for people to get transformed. When devotees enter certain social group, the mood in this group can help them to transform or it can help them to remain where they are. It can help them to conform to some external signs and to pretend being devotees. So, first thing which I want to state now is that healthy society, healthy community, is the community of spiritual seekers. is the community where people are forced, I don't know if it's a good word, forced, but at least inspired, inspired not just to follow some mechanical rituals, But people are inspired and enthused by the examples which they see around them to change their lives, to change their hearts, and to achieve the ideal of pure bhakti. And so unless we form this society, we cannot really claim that we are successful in forming a healthy society. Sometimes people say healthy society is a society which is based on the principles of Varnashima. Sure enough, there is no doubt about it. Varnashima is an ideal social system and we have to really think deeply how to reproduce some basic principles of Varnashima. I will mention about this a little later in our society. Definitely we cannot try to use some medieval recipes to introduce Varnashima. But again, first and foremost condition, we are not just creating Varnashima, And Dajvivarnashama basically means the society where the pure devotional service is of the highest esteem. Where this is the highest ideal and people are inspired by this ideal. Whether they will be able to follow this ideal or not, that's another question. but everyone is inspired by this ideal of pure bhakti, a completely transcendental ideal. If it's not there, if there are no examples of this complete surrender and people who are practicing pure bhakti, and inspiring others to practice pure bhakti, We are just creating yet another mundane religion which will gradually, gradually deteriorate and will become just, you know, money-making machine, not something which Srila Prabhupada wanted. And for that, the most important thing is to ask ourselves and to ask everyone who is dependent on us, who is following us, listening to us, whom we create. who are these people who are following us are they just blind followers are they just people who are you know who are programmed to be humble and to follow whatever we want them to follow or these are people who are who have some dignity and some freedom who feel I'm here because of my own choice, not because this is the religion which I follow and because everyone is following this religion and this religion is good. So this emphasis on being free in ISKCON. Sometimes we do a lot of emphasis on being humble, of being a follower, that's fine. But while doing all this kind of preaching, emphasizing the following, the obedience, the humility, we may completely forget that there is no bhakti without freedom of choice. There is no bhakti when a person feels that he is not following this because his heart is telling him to follow this. he may be externally very humble but I've seen again and again and again so many people who are externally humble and their leaders and everyone loves them but ultimately they're very unhappy if you're humble but unhappy if you are externally following bhakti but still there is no happiness in your heart there is no ecstasy in your heart we are betraying Srila Prabhupada and his movement I'm really sorry I'm speaking this heavy things because I didn't prepare this lecture but maybe it's good so to make it to make it more clear so and And for that, for people to remind people that they have to be, that they have to grow, you know, that they have to be very, how to say this, that they have to take responsibility for their spiritual life. That's another thing which I also wanted to say in regard to this topic of healthy society. First of course, it's a society or community of spiritual seekers. People who are free, who want to do it and who are excited to do it and who are inspired to do it because they see so many examples around them. People who are really, you know, introspective and trying to sincerely change their hearts and their lives. So, but the next point which I wanted to say is that sometimes in our attempts to create quote-unquote healthy society or happy community, like I remember there was once a slogan for ISKCON leadership, Sangha, whatever, more devotees, happier devotees. So in our attempts to have more devotees and happier devotees, we are trying to create all kinds of devotee care systems, which is definitely very good. But again, there is a danger. What does it mean? We have to very clearly understand what does devotee care system mean. Do we produce people who are irresponsible, who are under the pretext of being cared of, do not take responsibility for their own spiritual life? You know, there is a very fine difference between real care, spiritual care, which actually is the inspiration for people to take responsibility for their spiritual life themselves. And the system in which people, they just transfer responsibility, the burden of responsibility from their shoulders onto the shoulders of quote-unquote senior devotees or counselors or whatever. And instead of being purified and growing, we create some people who are irresponsible and who absolve the responsibility from their own. So another point here is that the healthy society is the society of people who very clearly understand the responsibility for my success is on my shoulders. It's not ISKCON who has to ensure my success. It's not my guru who is responsible for my spiritual progress and success. It's me. The onus of responsibility is on me, not on somebody else. because this, unfortunately we can see how often people are playing this game of blaming others in their spiritual failure. They, after so many years of practice, they don't feel tangible success and instead of investigating their heart and asking them questions, what is the reason why it is there, they are trying to find who is responsible for this. Who is guilty for my spiritual failure. And therefore there are so many detractors, so many people on the web who are always blaming, is that, is this. Why? Because from the very beginning devotees were not trained. The responsibility for your spiritual life, it's yours responsibility. And you have to take initiative, whatever is required. Yes, the SCON is there, spiritual masters are there, senior devotees are there, but initiative has to come from you. Initiative has to come from you for your spiritual life. You have to understand that nobody is responsible for it. And devotee care doesn't mean that you are not responsible for your spiritual life anymore. Your spiritual success is in your hands. So now, after stating these two very important principles, that people have to be conscious, they have to be very mature, or they have to become mature. Because, again, in Kali Yuga, so many people are not grown up, really. And they are not really mature. I remember very much, it was very interesting, Gopiparandana Prabhu, the great disciple of Srila Prabhupada, at one point he was giving a seminar, I think his seminar is still there about Varnashama principle and he said very beautiful thing which actually struck me at that time it was many years back but I still remember it he was quoting Satapatha Brahmana quite you know it's well known outside of his Vedic scripture which describes in particular the responsibilities of Brahmanas. And there are of course the standard set of responsibilities, Patanapatana, Yajinayajin, that we all know. But besides that, there is a very important responsibility, which is not only responsibility of Brahmanas, but in case of Iskona, it's a responsibility of every leader in Iskona. It's Loka Pakva, if I remember it correctly. It basically means that the responsibility of a Brahmana is to make other people who are maybe less developed spiritually mature. To help them grow and not to remain in this infantile, childish position. so that's the responsibility the duty of a Brahmana or a leader of ISKCON Loka Pakva to make sure that people are becoming grown up they are not in this you know position of a child dependent on this whatever whoever is there or dependent on the system, which is even worse, kinds of dependence. So if the leaders are very clear about this duty, I have to ask myself again and again and again, are people who are under my care and under my supervision, are they growing, are they becoming mature spiritual personalities with their high aspirations. If they are not becoming like this, I do not fulfill my duty. So after saying this, let me speak a little bit about the other principles of healthy society. We all know that Varnashram's system is the ideal social organization. So, next point which I want to emphasize in this regard for creating a healthy society, healthy society. We all know that the most important, two most important classes of people in Varnashrama is Brahmanas and Kshatriyas. They are the backbone of society without Brahmanas and Kshatriyas properly interacting with each other there is no question of any sane social organization or even any sane organization. These two forces have to be harmoniously incorporated in any society for society to be successful. Sometimes we are dealing with these categories in a very mechanical or outdated or out-fashioned way. You know, when we hear Brahmana, we have an image of some very, you know, completely impractical person who is just studying Shastras or whatever. And when we hear about Kshatriya, we have an image of a heavy-duty manager. So let's try to understand what is the formula of success when these two forces, social forces, are working in cooperation with each other. So what is the difference in the roles? And sometimes we very, you know, how to say, very loosely use these terms. Brahman is whoever has Brahminical initiation or whatever, and Kshatriya, whatever. Let's not talk about this. Let's talk about the real business. So, the Brahmana and Kshatriya, they have a very important role. Brahmana, they have to have the complete picture in front of them. They have to see, they're the leaders of the society. They have to make sure that the basic values of the spiritual society are intact. They are protectors of the values, spiritual values. Of course, they practice the spiritual values themselves, like humility and mercy and purity and austerity and cleanliness. But most important, they see the whole picture. They have the ability to see a picture without getting into details. The role of a kshatriya is to get things done. And for that, they inevitably will lose the complete picture. They will go into details. They are practical people. they have to get practical results. But in trying to achieve practical results, build a temple, make some Govindus work or whatever, trying to form the proper structure, managerial structure, they will not necessarily see the complete picture and see the direction where the society is going. So, Srila Prabhupada used to say that there is lame man and there is blind man. So, both should be there. Lame and blind people, lame and blind people together, they ensure the success of the society. So, Brahmanas, they have to have vision. They have to keep very clearly the vision of the ideal perfect society with proper values intact, practice it, and always remind people under their care about these important values. But managers, kshatris, administrators have to do things. Without this, there is no success. And Prabhupada, of course, he stressed both things. He stressed the practical side of our society for practical success, to achieve certain numbers, certain, you know, criterias of success, as we spoke in the beginning. But without the power, without the vision of Brahmanas, we will have a very empty society. Externally successful by so many different criteria or whatever, but ultimately empty without giving real satisfaction to the hearts of devotees who are participating in this society. And the most important thing is the relationship between these two classes of society or between these two forces in the society. We can see in Srimad Bhagavatam the beautiful scene when Manumaraj is coming to Kardama Muni and Manumaraj is praising Kardama Muni and saying, My dear sage, because you are there I am successful. And then Kardamomuni is praising Manu and saying, you are such a great kshatriya and you are so pure and so pious in your activities. So this mutual respect is very important. And it's very important for us to understand how Kshatriya can respect Brahmanas. What we see in reality, Kshatriyas, they usually, or people, let's not call them Kshatriyas, people with these strong managerial abilities and strong managerial temperament, They usually look at Brahmanas, look down at Brahmanas, they're useless people. They are not really, you know, practical. They're just speaking some theoretical knowledge. And okay, it's good, let them sit for 45 minutes on Vyasa-san and speak their philosophy. But, you know, there is a big announcement on the Vyasa-san. The lecture has to end at such and such time because the temple life has to go on. And the management has to work. And if your lecture, your stupid lecture goes one minute later. I remember I was in such situations. There was one heavy manager who was, you know, So if you are one minute later in your lectures, you are not welcome anymore in this temple. So this sort of relationship is actually the formula for failure. if people with managerial abilities do not understand that they are totally dependent on people with more broader vision the people who are really can be guardians of important spiritual values and can be embodiment of important spiritual values If these relationships are not established, then society will ultimately be completely useless. Externally successful, but useless. So now, the most important question, how to establish this relationship between these two classes or between these two categories of people in our society? How it should be established properly? So, the reason why Brahmanas were so respected in Vedic society. There were three reasons why Brahmanas were so respected in Vedic society. First of all, they of course were very practical people. But the most important thing, why other people like kings, powerful kings with all their powers and everything else, why they respected them? Because they were trained by Brahmanas. Because Brahmanas were their teachers. and the respect for this Brahminical culture, Brahminical qualities, qualities of real Brahmanas was actually instilled in their hearts from the very beginning. We know this was a very strict rule in Vedic society that no matter who you are, you may be a very powerful kshatriya, but you have to go to Gurukul And you have to sit there with other people. And from this early childhood, when you are trained by Brahmana, the fear of Brahmana, good fear, not bad fear, not the fear because Brahmanas are more powerful, but understanding that there is a need of Brahminical wisdom was instilled. So it's very important when we train leaders that they may not be young gurukuli boys, but still they have to, from the very beginning, to understand that to fulfill my role as a leader or as a manager in any capacity, I have to have shelter of somebody who is more wise than myself. And wisdom basically means the capacity to see the complete picture. Wisdom means the ability to have this complete vision with understanding of the relationship between different parts of the picture. Whereas, again, by the very nature and by the mode of passion, those who are doing their administrative duty, they are more or less focused on certain things to achieve certain results and they are losing this big picture. So ideally, in our society, this preminical force has to be dominant and it has to be dominant Because even we know that Dronachari was so respected by powerful kshatriyas because Dronachari was their teacher and because he was even better warrior than them. Because he was teaching them this. He was expert in this. And Srila Prabhupada, that was his idea again and again. he repeated this, that he wanted to create this Brahminical class of people who are very knowledgeable and at the same time very wise. That was one of the reasons that those people who are working as administrators, it's a very important function in the society. They were trained from the very beginning by Brahmanas. Another reason why Brahmanas were universally respected is that they were detached. And we know that people who want to have some power, usually attach to some power and money and everything else. But if they see that somebody is detached, then they can accept his authority. They will not see him as a competitor, as a rival to his position, but it will be easier for such a person to accept Brahminical advice when the genuine detachment is there, instilled. And the third reason, of course, was that Brahmanas were very powerful because of their purity and they could curse you. And if Brahmanas were not pleased with you, then Kshatriyas were afraid of this. Why I am talking about this? Because we have to see how to implement it practically. I'm explaining the ideal picture of this, but obviously we don't have the ideal situation in our society, whatever is there is there. But we really have to understand that these two forces have to work in cooperation with each other. And it's only possible if those who are doing, you know, managerial work and administration are dependent, internally dependent, sincerely dependent on those people who are wise, who are detached, more detached than they are, and who are ready to help them and giving shelter to them by giving them spiritual advice and guarding and maintaining the spiritual atmosphere in the whole society. So that's as far as the principles. There are so many other principles in the Varnashima system, But again, it's not about creating some idyllic replica of medieval Varnassima system with so detailed rules. rules, it's not going to work. But understanding these core principles and trying to implement them as much as is possible in our far from ideal situation of advanced Kali Yuga, where everyone is really completely brainwashed by all this social media and everything else. So, just to repeat, I'm speaking for one hour, I was not planning to speak more than this. I basically spoke about four things. One is that we should ask ourselves again and again and again, are we creating society of spiritual seekers? Society of people who are looking for the highest ideal in their life, or we are creating just a nice pious society of the attendees of Sunday feasts. people who are coming there because this is the religion, because this is a nice society. Second, people who are under our care have to really understand that the responsibility for their life is their responsibility. It's really their responsibility, not anyone else. Everyone else can help them to achieve in their spiritual journey. But ultimately, responsibility is theirs, not somebody else. And that's why we need a Brahminical class. And the duty of Brahmanas is to help other people to become mature. Infantile people, people who are not mature, who have some problems, to become ultimately more mature in their approach to life and in this way feel fulfilled in their spiritual practice and in their material life and their practical life which they're leading. And then, you know, if we're talking about understanding how the ideal society should work, we have to be very clear that there are two distinct roles. Brahminical role of people who are keeping the complete picture and knowing the complexity of reality and developing wisdom and guarding the spiritual principles in the society by practicing these high spiritual standards. and practical people who are achieving success, but at the same time, in a genuine way, dependent on the Brahminical class. Without this dependence, we are doomed to create some very second-class kind of material organizations, which may work nicely but ultimately have zero spiritual value. So, these are a few things which I could speak about without being informed properly that this is the topic of my presentation. If they are of some value, I would be happy. If they are not, well, what can I do? So that's a few things which I could share with you from my experience. And if we are not conscious of this, if we are really not conscious and we are only trying to do nice organization with nice structures, with everything working, it ultimately will be something which Śrīla Prabhupāda didn't want us to do. He wanted to have really spiritual organization and it's a very high ideal. If we are conscientious we have to really ask ourselves what we are doing. Are we trying to build some second-class material organization, religious organization, or a real spiritual movement with the highest ideal of pure bhakti intact and firmly established in the society? And people are striving to achieve this ideal. So, thank you very much. That was a few words which I had to say. And I'm very happy to see Devashree Radhika, whom I'm so familiar with. Okay. May we ask questions? Yes. Yes. Yes. A few minutes we can ask. Okay, so if anyone has questions, please, this opportunity now. Yes, Ravati Patti Prabhu. Hare Krishna, my humble basis is to you. Let us see. I cannot promise anything. Yeah, I'm still praying, I'm awake. Thank you very much for a very deep insight into that healthy community building. I also read your article about a very similar topic of are we getting diluted and the whole discussion on that. One of the questions I have is that Vishal Prabhupada already put a structure in place. Like we have the top-hole body, GBC body which is like, of course they say it's the ultimate managing authority but it's ultimately the guiding authority also. And then spiritual masters are there. Till now also many of them have received personal training from Shilaprabhupad and they've been in the movement for many many years. So what happens is that actually the entire organization is ideally driven by them. Whatever they emphasize, whatever they recognize, that's what will be getting down the line. So at our level, like you know, say at my level, all of us are there, we are more or less in a managerial position rather than in a very spiritually influential position to the committee members. But yeah, at an individual level, I perfectly agree with what you told that how we should do at our level. But I'm just saying at an organization level, at a society level, how do we really see the situation when we do have you know people in place and a structure in place but if that is not checking into account what is happening today then like how do we do it individually is fine but the influences with them with almost people the spiritual masters the leaders Srila Prabhupada established a structure. There is no doubt about it. But our duty is to always ask ourselves, is this structure fulfilled the purpose for which it is established? because structure in itself has the tendency to become material and by this process of materialization of the structure it loses its original purpose. So, this process of examining what is going on on every level, it has to be done on every level. On the level of GBC, the GBC members have to ask themselves, are we doing our duties as Prabhupada wanted, or are we just doing something because there is so much pressure and we have to respond to this pressure? Are we doing this in a proper mood, with a proper understanding of what is the goal and what Srila Prabhupada wanted us to do? But the same is true on every other level. Because if we are just doing it mechanically according to the culture, and culture is not necessarily right, you know, the culture, Silla Propath established certain structure and then there is a way of doing things. The GBC has their way of doing things and they're kind of familiar with doing things they're doing, which is not necessarily always right. The temple president has their ways of doing this. This is the culture. But the culture has to be re-examined again and again and again. Are we doing it properly? And for that you need this Brahminical vision or Brahminical wisdom. You need people who are not directly involved into the management of society, but who are just observing the development of society and saying, something is wrong here. You know, externally it may be okay, it looks okay, but something in essence is wrong. So you need such people who have the power to say, and they have to have enough authority that other people who are doing things would listen to them and they will stop doing this. So that's exactly what I was saying. So on every level, no matter where you are, you have to ask this question and you have to have somebody who can give you maybe, because sometimes we may not give the right answer to these questions, but you have to have somebody who can give you the correct answer, who can I can give you answers which may not be so complimentary, may not be so pleasing, but it will be a true answer. So, yes, and we have to also understand and feel the responsibility. Yes, maybe you're right, it's going from the top, But still, you know, if something may not be exactly right on the top, you know, I still, it's not too late to correct it on my level. And for that, I have to ask these questions. So, I don't know if I'm too revolutionary here or what, but I still think that There is a lot to do on every level. And by saying that, you know, I'm just doing what the other big people are doing, we are more or less absolving ourselves from the responsibility. We are more or less saying that, no, I'm not responsible. Not everyone is responsible and that was one of the points which I told. We have to feel I am responsible for the success of Prabhupada's movement. And am I doing everything right to ensure this success or am I just mechanically doing something which I am supposed to do according to some structure without really asking myself questions? Is it a properly tuned structure? Thank you. you very much for such a profound insight into how to lead. And I have two questions. I don't know if I should stay, but it's something which I'm currently also reflecting on. And your lecture came as a very profound insight into something that's been going on in my life and mind in my services for a while. And the first question is in relation to, you mentioned how, the first question has two small parts. One is that in my services now, the importance of devotee care is becoming more and more, it's expanding and I'm realizing how service to Shala Prabhupada means service to his devotees also, and service to his mission and the missionary spirit. And you very nicely pointed out how we cannot just, maybe I'm saying it in a very not so appropriate way, but we cannot just use our devotees. We have to be responsible for our devotees to an extent. So it's a meeting of two responsibilities, their responsibility for themselves, but also our responsibility for them to bring about that transformation. And I was just reflecting that now, if I'm very honest and vulnerable here with you, due to my service at the international, regional and local level, there are devotees that I engage with and I care for and they are becoming part of different projects with me. I do also see my limitation where you can see that there is so much transformation for us as leaders, but also for the devotees we are interacting with, which is due. But at the same time, we also on a personal level have our limitations of how many individuals we can feel that close responsibility for. So in that sense, what should be our demeanor then? That's one part of the question. What exactly the question? What should be our... Our demeanor, that when we have our own limitations, with how much we can take on. But we also see the need for feeling responsible for a certain kind of transformation for devotees we have with us. Mm-hmm, okay. Well, I heard a very nice story about Sr. Radhanath Maharaj. Recently, somebody asked him, Maharaj, what happened with you Before you were talking all the time, people, people, people, and now you are talking projects, projects, projects. Did you change your mind? Did you change your emphasis? And Marac smiled and said, no, I didn't. Before I was talking people, people, people, and now I'm talking projects, projects, projects, because when people grow, they need some projects. So, the emphasis is again on people, but when people grow, they become responsible themselves. So, answering your questions, why I told this little story by answering your question, you You know, yes, we are definitely limited in how many people we can take care of, but if we will take care of other people by inspiring them, if we take care of a few people whom we can really take care of, by inspiring them to take more responsibility, including the responsibility for the lives and spiritual lives of other people, then this purpose will be, this goal will be fulfilled. You know, you feel your natural limitation, please take limited responsibility for a limited number of people, but inspire them also to take more responsibility for other people. And in this way, you will indirectly also, you know, take more responsibility by inspiring other people to take responsibility. Thank you very much, Mahesh. Mahesh, before I move on to my second question, I had a second part to this question also when dealing with devotees. On this Sunday, his guest, Akhenjana Krishna Prabhu from Rindar, when he was here, and he was giving the lecture, and he made such a beautiful point that while others judge, devotees see the scope of improvement. So while people tend to judge, devotees are more compassionate and they think, okay, how can this person improve? So more than judgment, it's about the vision of benefit. And even while you were giving a lecture, I was dealing with one situation where a devotee has this deep dissatisfaction and sometimes in management we do come across devotees who have so much to process and difficult situations arise and what we call, quote unquote, difficult behavior arises. And of course, when we are managing or dealing with devotees, if we have this vision of what is beneficial for them, we might say, okay, this is where they can improve. So how should we deal with this circumstance? Because I also had a conversation with his great Janani Vatspabu on Sunday. He was here in Zurich. And he said something. He gave me an advice. In management, sometimes you have to have blinders. You don't have to hear everything and know everything. I was just thinking, how do we balance these two things? That it is true that I cannot know everything and I don't have to deal with everything, but at the same time, have this vision of improvement for a devotee and implement it. So if you may have any thoughts on this subject matter. It's a little vague, at least. I can try to give vague answers to the vague question. If you have the faith that somebody whom you are dealing with can improve, you just convey this faith, this conviction that you can be better. Yes, people sometimes they are behaving in the way they used to behave and they always and they're caught in this conception that I'm like this and I cannot change. But you as a leader, you have to have the different conception, the different conviction. yes you can be better and you can you can do better you can it's possible so just this conviction or this inspiration which is there in your heart can give people some idea how they can change so I guess it's just just you know, the matter of your heart, when you have this face that somebody can improve, then you can help him to overcome the difficulties he is dealing with or she is dealing with. Thank you very much. My last to second question is that because you began your discourse by mentioning how Ślāpāpār disciples are leaving and to really know what Ślāpārāpār desires and the vision forward. And recently I faced a situation where it was a project with my God family and because my Gurmaj has physically disappeared, we were all trying to discern what would be the right way to deal with something. And it's the same about family and we have all had a close association with Gurmaj, but we all had such differing views. And at that point, I felt very fearful because as a young devotee who has so many analfas and so many things to work on, I just feel quite fearful that at some point I will be here left behind and the senior devotees will pass on on the spiritual journey and then I have to figure out what to do and then there will be these differences of opinion and all of them are correct but at the same time then how do we really understand how to move forward in such circumstances. Whether our spiritual master is there in person or he is not there in person, sometimes he is there, sometimes he is not. But we have to have somebody in... Ideally we should have somebody whom we trust who can represent our spiritual master. Because yes, there will be bewildering situations and there will be differences in opinion. But in ideal situations, we should have somebody whom we trust practically on the same level. I don't know if it's... It may not be possible, but at least we should try to look for somebody. Because yes, ultimately there will be so many different opinions and sometimes completely contradictory opinions. So whom do we listen? Yes, there is definitely a method. You search in your heart, you go to the deity of Krishna and you ask Krishna, please give me the right answer. But sometimes we may not hear properly what Krishna tells us from within the heart. So in this case we should just ask somebody whom we trust more. It may be a good spiritual family, but still in this spiritual family or in our bigger spiritual family of Iskona, there should be somebody whom we trust, who will be the ultimate authority in these kinds of questions, especially if it's very important questions. Therefore, Chaitanya Maprabhu said that we should always be under the guidance of somebody who is more advanced than us. We should never be without any guidance. Or we should be guided, you know, on a very high level of advancement, we will be guided by Krishna himself. But ideally, we should always have somebody who is more advanced than us. Sometimes the society of devotees of the same level can also fulfill this role, but ideally there should be somebody who is more advanced and whom we trust. Thank you very much. We have one more question by Yonanda Puro. Hare Krishna, Maharaj, please accept my approval. Hare Krishna, Ravani. Am I audible, Maharaj? Yes. Yeah, thank you, Maharaj. It's a wonderful plan. One thing that he told really touched me is Prabhupada, Krishna Prabhupada has done so much sacrifice. He has crossed his oceans in the Jaladosa, expecting us to become something. You know, pure devotion as the highest principle. Are we really reaching there? That was very touching, Maharaj. So Maharaj, the question that I have is, most of the time we are driven by what we are measured with. You know, there is always like, somebody senior comes to a temple or a center. And what we are very eager to tell him or show him is mostly the number of people, the number of devotees coming and attending, you know, and mostly how beautiful the duties are. you know, you know, all these things are being taken care of. There is so much external aspect and the measurement actually is number of books that are distributed, you know, number of festivals that are celebrated. So, everybody needs encouragement. So, we receive that encouragement by those seniors coming and appreciating on those activities. But what you really touched upon is another level of measurement. So what I want to know from you Maharaj is what way we can measure it. Is there even a possibility to measure our own self, of course, you know, Paramahsana speaks to us, but how the congregation is going forward, how do we measure the inner growth, and if this really, I'll just end saying that if Srila Prabhupada visits my temple today, you know, where I am, will he be really happy and what exactly will he look into people, based on what you said. You're right. We need encouragement and external criteria are easier to measure and it's an easy way to show that this is the success. But still, there is some way of measuring more internal criteria of success. I would say one of these is, you know, we may have big crowd on our festival during the one day, or we may have big crowd on Sunday. That's one criteria of success, but how many devotees who are ready to take responsibility is another criteria. There may be 10 million people coming to your Janmashtimi program, but when it comes for some doing something which requires some sacrifice or responsibility, nobody is there. But if this number grows of people who are really taking responsibility upon themselves, that's a good criteria. And ultimately, you know, the criteria of success is how people are internally happy, how they are satisfied. And if we are taking the immediate community, the measurement of their satisfaction is How much gossip is there? How much internal quarrels is there? This is also important criteria. If the level of gossip and there are so many conflicts, it means that you are doing something wrong. People are not really happy and not really trying to achieve their high spiritual goals, but they are just living a normal, quote-unquote, Kali-yuga life. But I would say that this number of people who are becoming responsible for their spiritual life is the most important criteria in this regard. Thank you, Maharaj. And Srila Prabhupada was actually successful because he fulfilled this criteria. He would give this sense of responsibility for Krishna consciousness to his immediate disciples and they would become very responsible. Anyway, there are so many stories how people would just join and, you know, in two weeks they would go to some other country to open a new center of International Society of Krishna Consciousness because of the potency of Prabhupada's preaching. Thank you, Manoj. I love you. Do we have time for another question? Yeah, just last one. Last question, okay. Okay, it says a name that I don't like Kamalina. I don't think that's the name. I could try. Yeah, no, it's Karuna Mai. Sorry, I'm driving. Okay. Thank you very much for our wonderful and thought-provoking class. What I wanted to ask is that in ISKCON, competition in a way, and I put it in inverted commas, is necessary to encourage and motivate devotees, like for example in book distribution, the December book marathon, etc. But how does one balance and facilitate healthy competition within his God? Because sometimes when the competitive spirit is there, greed takes over God. So how are you able to balance the truth? How are you able to balance what exactly? Healthy competition. Healthy competition in Krishna consciousness. Yes, so Srila Prabhupada explains that there is Vaikuntha competition. Vaikuntha competition is a competition which is not based on envy. Vaikuntha competition is that when somebody who is defeated is actually happy because somebody did better than him. because he did better than him for Krishna and he's happy for his success. So the unhealthy competition, which is very much a feature of somebody in Rajagun, in the mode of passion, is always based on this desire to show I am better than you. But we have to really train people that, you know, the competition is not to show that I'm better than you, but the competition is to make Krishna more happy. The unhealthy competition is when my eye is in the center. And when we too much praise somebody and say he is the best and this and that, that's one way of evaluating the success of a person. But if we say that we all together did that much and Krishna is in the center and we are doing it to please Prabhupada, to please Krishna, that will promote the healthy spirit of competition. We should not only encourage people to compete individually and to stress their individual success, but we also have to encourage our collective success as our group or society together and to value everyone's input. When we too much praise somebody who wins the competition, who is the number one, then it will promote not a very healthy spirit. But if we try to first of all say that we are all together doing it and we also praise some other people. I remember in one of the first marathons where I took place, took part, there were so many people and many people, they distributed many books. but there was one small bhakti who was crying the whole marathon. And she couldn't distribute. She only distributed one book. But the person to whom she distributed this one book, he came to the temple and he became a devotee. And she was announced as the winner of the marathon because everyone else was distributing so many books, but nobody became a devotee. She distributed just one, but it was... Krishna really appreciated her sincerity and her tears. So we have to also have some other criteria, not just the numbers, but the quality of distribution, There was one devotee in Moscow who was distributing many books, and he died. There was some accident in Brindavan. He was very young and he passed away. For at least five or seven years, regularly, every Sunday, people would come and they would be asking, where is such and such person? I met him on St Kirtan, he gave me a book and the impression which he left is so strong, I want to see him. For years such people would come to say that, you know, where is he and I want to see him because he changed my life. So we have to also praise such people and their achievements, not only the numbers. So thank you, Maharaj. Thank you. Thank you so, so much. So I guess that's it. Thank you to the DBC College and all of us. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Hare Krishna. Thank you, Guru Maharaj, for taking the time. And we are begging for your association more in the DBC College. Okay. Thank you so so much. Thank you. Shilpa Kshayangaswamy, Guru Maharaj. Shilpa Prabhupada ki Jai. Jai. Jai. Hare Krishna.