Anartha Nivritti. Lecture 5

Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Sāgārājātām Saganāvalitā, śrī viṣakāvitāṁścā, He Krishna karunā sindho, dīna bandho jagatpathe, Gopesa gopika kānta, prāda kānta namastute, Taptapanchana Gaurangi Radhe Vrindavaneshwari Hrishabhānausute Devi Prānamāmi Haripriye Vanchā Kalpātarudhyascha Kripāsindūbhyayavascha Shri Krishna Chaitanya Prabhu Nikananda Shri Vaita Gadabhaya Shri Vasadhi Gaurabhakta Vrinda Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Hare Hare. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. PURUSHAYA TUBYAM Chaitanya Mahaprabhuur Matamidam Tatra Dharu Napa Rahar. So, today we will mostly try to interact with you and answer your questions, but I'll give a very brief description of what we have studied so far in Madhuri Kadamini. We studied Mangala Chirana and then we briefly went through the first chapter of Madhuri Kadambini where Vishwanac Chakravarti Thakur establishes an independent nature of bhakti, which is the personal Maha Shakti, great energy of the Lord. and then in the second chapter he explained how the first stages of spiritual development take place when we get the seed and we talked that this seed of devotional service is certain kind of intelligence discriminating intelligence which helps us to see the truth it's certain kind of the intelligence which facilitates our devotional progress. And then because of this, immediately the seed of bhakti starts sprouting and starts eradicating bad qualities and manifests some auspicious properties. and then Shrada comes oh well it's simultaneous process and we talked a lot about Shrada how Shrada starts with respect and develops into action combined with hope to achieve the ultimate goal of devotional service the Shrada is only meaningful when it is coupled with this determined actions with clear understanding of the goal and very ardent hope to ultimately achieve this desired goal. And then today we started the third shower, third chapter, which is Anartha Nivriti, Eridication of Anarthas. And basically just two words about this chapter, which is ahead of us. Anarthas are called anarthas because in the ultimate sense, they are not valuable, but subjectively they seem to be valuable to us. it would not be difficult to get rid of anarthas if we would not consider them artas this process is so painful and so difficult because we actually cling, we don't want to let them go because we feel very much insecure without this anarchist. Anarchist are just programs which help us to exist in this material world. Yeah. And they give us some security. You know, anger is actually very useful. What to speak about lust, it's very useful. It has multi-purposes. can be used in many different occasions so greed is of course very useful so from the material perspective they are useful and they are viewed by us as something valuable but from spiritual perspective they are completely useless because they are hindrances obstacles for us to achieve paramartar the highest artha, the highest achievement of our life. And because in the beginning stages, we do have spiritual outlook, spiritual understanding or spiritual point of view, then at least on a conscious level, we think, yes, it's useless. But still under some conscious level, we think, no, it's very useful. So therefore this struggle, this tassel, this push and pull game is going on. We preach to us, it's useless. And our false ego says, I know better. How you can survive without this? You need this. So this is what is going on. And therefore we are disturbed. We are disturbed because an artist disturb us because there are so many desires which surface. And actually what happens also at this moment of, and this period of our spiritual development, Bhajana Kriya means our conscious attempts to serve. We surrender to guru, we take initiation, Krishna Diksha Dishikshanam. We systematically take shiksha. And then because of this systematic shiksha, we understand sadhacharya, the rules of sadhacharya, we understand what we're supposed to do. And we consciously try to serve. But because it's still somewhat forced attitude because we're still deep down are enjoyers. The resistance comes out and it's basically, we start feeling or seeing negative qualities which are in us. Oftentimes, devotees say that before I started chanting Hare Krishna, I was much better. Now I'm completely... It's not that you were much better. You were just much more ignorant and you didn't... You were not aware about the problems which you have. So the process of devotional service, it helps us to see all the problems which we have much more clearly. Besides that, we always hear that this is bad and this is bad. This will bring bad consequences. So we always hear this kind of preaching. So we see all these deficiencies and it's sometimes very painful. it's like if you have a pot and the pot was used many times and you cook there it seemed to be quite clean but then when you start washing it you look at this and it seems to be clean but then you start washing it and there is a lot of dirt which is coming from this pod because it was before it stuck to the walls of this pod. But now because of this disturbance we start seeing all these problems. So the cleansing process, it's like disease or rather healing process. Oftentimes Sometimes healing, when you start healing, it is combined with some crisis, health crisis. Very rarely you heal without any problems. Sometimes the disease becomes more acute. actually it's a healing process but the disease becomes more visible because of this purification procedures which you apply and exactly the same thing is happening when we start doing devotional service certain problems which were not visible become more visible and more acute and therefore sometimes it's very painful but don't worry it will be gone if you are insistent enough and if you are if you manifest certain humility and if you are in the society of devotees it's very important to be in the in the society because we can always find some help. So that's the process of purification from an artist. We will see some details of this process and more exact description of what is going on. But this is just brief and now we can try to answer of your questions if you have some. Please, I will translate. and when it's too high, not by our level, it's not a перевarian and a откat. The question about the Manejshki is, is there any people can come to? Because there were some comments, when there was a откat, and in the result, it was not enough. How much of a retreat is needed to be able to visit these retreats? or are such short stintes are all good for all? developed very strong desire to achieve the goal of Shastras. But the question is, but I said, if Shraddha is very weak and we try to follow Sadhana, which is not really suitable for our level of Shraddha, then the result may be opposite. and sometimes we can see it people give very high maintain for some time very high standard of devotional practice but then they give it up completely you know, they're chanting two lakhs, three lakhs and the question is we have this program in Russian speaking part of ISKCON which is called Nama Nishta it's short retreats one day retreat with one entrance and one day out or three days retreat when people chant as much as possible two larks or whatever or sometimes three larks within the day they keep complete mona and they believe it or not surrender their mobile phones and don't look at them. So it's a very severe austerity. And the question was, is it suitable for everyone? Because there were cases when people get this experience and the result was not positive. Mostly it's very positive when people feel the calmness of the mind and feel very intimate connection with the Holy Name. But in some cases, it's not people feel that they kind of go back. So which level of Shraddai is suitable? It's very difficult to define exactly on which level you should do it. I would say that to dedicate one day completely do the holy name is safe. The problem comes much more acute when we give some vow. Sometimes people being enthusiastic give some vow and I will follow this like in in in the life of Silla Prabhupada one of his disciples he decided to follow the vow of Takur Haridas he started living in the rice field in Mayapur and chanting three lakhs a day so for two weeks he was chanting three lakhs a day and then he disappeared somewhere so just to try to get this experience for one day and to see what happens I would say is advisable for everyone but to keep it as a stable practice is probably not a good idea before we are ready for this just one day is okay even three days you can try yes it would be nice if somebody would watch the audience and facilitate you said that first we should satisfy Guru with our service and humbleness for that his heart and his knowledge and mercy came into our heart from his heart so should one be near Guru Maharaj for that How do you know? Physical proximity is not necessary. Bhakti does not depend on the material distance. Bhakti is the energy which is beyond time and space. therefore for bhakti it can travel with this speed which is much higher than the speed of light so any distance can be covered physical proximity is not important in fact we can be physically very close but at the same time our mind or our hearts can be very distant. Sometimes people live in one apartment and they're not close at all. Even though physically they live in the same place. So physical proximity is not a factor at all. It's just a question of sincerity and when you sincerely try and guru knows what you're doing and how you're trying then you can download the mercy from his heart no problem if you know the password which is trinada pi sunichina tarorati saishnuna amanina amanadina kirtani If this password is there, then you can get the nurse. Hare Krishna Maharaj. Is it possible for a disciple from the same guru, for a disciple to get Bhakti Lata Bhish of pure devotion and another to not get it? And if yes, what really determines what kind of seed we get? no if you are listening to a person and if the person is pure how you can get impure seed from a pure person what can happen is that you get the pure seed but instead the weeds start growing in your heart and the pure seed is suppressed the seed may be there but it may not manifest so much it's not that somebody gets pure seed and somebody gets impure seed some people they just what they do they kind of misuse the process of bhakti for their own aggrandizement or for any other purposes. So they may receive the seed or whatever their relationship with guru are. But at the same time, something else growing within the heart. It's not that they receive something improper from the guru. No, they don't need to receive anything from real guru because everything which they need is already there. It's just manifest. it very much depends on our sincerity and sincerity of purpose and therefore we have to be introspective all these descriptions in our shastras like Bhakti Rasa Amrita Sindhu or Madhuri Kadambini are there to help us to investigate the heart to see what is really going on without that it would be very difficult for us to understand the processes but this is a science which helps us to see what is going on we have to be self analytical and reflect what is going on And of course, and especially what we need, we need the association with some more advanced people who will also show us something which we would not be able to see. Thank you very much for the class. My question is can Laukika Shraddha and Shastriya Shraddha live in one's heart simultaneously or if there is Shastriya Shraddha then there is no space for Laukika Shraddha? When we analyze ourselves, it seems like we have both sometimes. Is it possible or how is it in reality? It's like... It's possible because we're very expert in... The question is, is it possible for both logika shrada or conventional sraddha and sastrya sraddha to live simultaneously within our heart. Yes, it's definitely possible because we are very expert in cross-breeding our sraddhas. We think that we will make some special breed of sraddha. So we have some sort of hybrid Sraddha with some elements of Shastra and some elements of logic superstition, some sort of logic understanding. But if we study Shastra ultimately, this logica element will be eradicated from now on. Yes. Anaj, this is regarding Guru Tartra. Probably here Guru is as good as God. So I just wanted to check because we also know that Guru is not the three qualities of God, Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent. At least it doesn't seem that Guru has God. So in what context Guru is as good as God? Is it that when he gives us scriptural messages, instructions based on scriptures, it is as good as God giving it to us and that's how we should follow it. And in what context is Guru is not as good as Guru? Is it like when he talks about some kind of, like when Prabhupada spoke about certain things about the war between Russia and the US, certain things didn't happen. So, because this is a question that has been there for many people. So, give some clarification. Bhakti Raksakhshidhar Maharaj he wrote a beautiful book Guru and His Grace where he explains that Guru Tattva is the most difficult Tattva because it's one of the most difficult Tattva also because it's the combination of both. He says that there is this material, so to speak, feature of the personality and the spiritual feature. So, when we say that Guru is as good as God, the understanding is that we should view that it is Krishna himself who is acting through this particular person. Krishna himself because Krishna is not really bold enough to come in our life. Therefore he sends his representative and see the result. We know that he sent Jesus Christ and what they did to him. It's not so safe to come to this material world. The system is actually there for us to rehearse the pure relationship. therefore it's very important for us to see, to view him in this light because otherwise we will of course talk about this tomorrow more but we know that he's not God and at the same time we view him as God because we see that God is acting through this particular person he is using him as an instrument and I have to look at him and that's actually the glory of Vedic culture because Vedic culture not only talks about Guru is God, Vedic culture also says Pitri Deva Bhavo Matri Deva Bhavo Acharya Deva Bhavo so Shastra says you have to see your father as God Does it mean that he's God? No, he's not God. But you look at him and you try not to see his conditioned nature, but you see the manifestation of God which gives you protection. Why should we look at our Father as God? Because he is functioning as God in our life. He's protecting us. he's giving us intelligence he helps us to be the proper person if he's proper father in the same way mother she's also fulfilling certain functions which are the functions of ultimately of God because only he has this power the Shakti to protect and the Shakti to nourish so in the same way guru, guru is God because we should view him as God because he gives the transcendental knowledge. Unless we really understand clearly that he gives us this knowledge and the knowledge is coming from him, we will not receive the pure knowledge. To receive the pure knowledge with the experience because it's not just theoretical knowledge, It's the knowledge which is deepened, made more profound by the realization of the particular person. So to receive it properly, we have to view and to have the certain attitude towards the spiritual master to receive his experience and his knowledge. but at the same time yes guru may have some conditioned features in his personality as much as our father has some conditioned features but we just don't interact with this side of guru we don't want to interact with this side of guru if this understanding is very clearly established, then the society runs smoothly. Our parents should be viewed properly, with proper respect. And then we get protection from them. Because if we don't behave properly, we don't get what we need to get from them. In a similar way, if a disciple does not behave properly towards the guru, he cheats himself. he will not get what he could get he will not get what Krishna wants him to get through this particular person it's not without a reason not just by accident you come in contact with this person you develop faith in this person so if you behave properly if you function in this relationship properly as a disciple then the Guru will also open his heart and give or Krishna, Radha Krishna from his heart will give what you need so when when we talk about the relationship between guru and disciple there is always the third party involved the third party is God so he is there in the heart of guru and in your heart and he is guiding and sometimes often times it is like this you have some questions you are pondering, you have some doubts and then you just click and some lecture is there and all of a sudden here you are the answer is right there it's not that guru is sitting there and saying let me guide him to make the proper, to push the proper button no, it's Krishna Krishna was in your heart and it's really happening Krishna is there we don't see, Krishna is very tricky he is hiding himself but he is there he's every and if he sees that we're sincere in this relationship he will arrange and he will get you whatever you need with Diksha Guru and you have given one example that first initiation and second initiations and in your dad you have mentioned it's not necessary that even in the presence of the spiritual masters that first and second initiations can be taken from the same Guru and you have given example of that one of the disciples of Miranin Swami Maharaj approached his own this Gaurav in Bharaj and he had given him second initiation. So, Mahalaj, there is a lot of confusion regarding this because in the current practices of Prabhul movement, we don't see it as a general practices. So, what is the philosophical understanding for this, Mahalaj, if you can elaborate? There is Harinam Diksha, when we receive Harinam. and the holy name together with beads and new name and there is mantra diksha and it's there are different stages of the same process of diksha Bhaktivinoda Takur he reestablished now sampradaya, this pancha samskara which is very prominent in Sri sampradaya that tapa, pundra and nama and then mantra and then finally yaga so these five elements they are all elements of diksha elements of the same process which basically what diksha means Diksha means you receive certain qualifications from the guru. You become diksha. Diksha means you become qualified to perform certain actions. Like in traditional Vedic culture, children, they get diksha from a guru when they are seven-year-old or ten-year-old. And that's basically the sign that they are qualified now to study Vedas. So Dixie also has the similar nature. First you receive holy name from a guru and it basically means that guru feels that you are qualified to start practicing this changing of the holy name. But then when you progress a little further you can receive mantra and mantra means the next stage of your qualification you start more consciously chant a mantra to purify your heart from all the anarchists and to ultimately chant the pure holy name so it could be given by different people like for example in Gaudiya Math they don't place too much emphasis in the first initiation, for them Diksha is the second initiation. Srila Prabhupada of course, he placed a lot of emphasis on the first initiation as well, but still it's a different element and it could be. It's not against it is not against our culture. We can have somebody as a Nam guru and somebody as Mantra guru. Usually it is like this, that somebody who gives us the holy name, he also can give us mantra, or should give us mantra. But in some cases it may be different people. There is a beautiful story, Sri Sampradaya, in this connection. The story is described in one of the commentaries to Divya Prabhanda, to Namalvar hymns. So the story is like this. There was one guru, Vaishnav, who gave diksha to a disciple, Pancha Samskara. And then somehow the disciple became a little restless. and doubtful and he approached another Mahabhagavata and received another diksha from him and then little later this first guru found out no, little later the second guru found out that he was the second one and the first one already gave diksha, so he came to the first guru and started begging from him forgiveness, please forgive me, I didn't know that you already gave Diksha and I committed this aparada and the first guru said, no, no, it's very good that you gave him Diksha because to pull this guy from the valve which he is in it's better if we together otherwise it's difficult so So what's wrong with it? Yes. You can speak. I'll explain. I'll explain. Please tell me, in Christian faith, there is a concept of the religious belief. They are religious belief. They are religious belief. They are religious belief. But we have a religious belief. We are religious belief. We are religious belief. We are religious belief. We are religious belief. So the question is we sometimes say that other people or Christian people they have blind faith even though they also have their scriptures and we have our scriptures and we also supposed to believe in our scriptures? What is the difference between their faith and our faith? Both have scriptures and both are supposed to believe completely without any questions in the statements of the scriptures. What is the difference between us? Why do we say that our faith is not blind? Well, I try to explain the process of developing the proper scriptural faith. This process, in other traditions, to believe in something unquestioned, without any questions, is the entrance ticket. You cannot go anywhere. First, you have to allege yourself to a certain set of beliefs. Without this allegiance to a certain set of beliefs, you are nowhere. It's not like this in our Vaishnava tradition. We don't have to pledge allegiance to a certain set of beliefs. We do have a very beautifully formed set of beliefs, but it's not that this is the entrance ticket into the realm of practice and everything else. we develop some respect towards Guru and then we start hearing and we start clarifying the doubts and Guru will explain with logic and with rationale what is behind this something which we you know again we don't have to believe in anything blindly because it is stressed very much that we have to dissipate our doubts. Blind belief means that I have to believe even though I have so much doubts but I have to believe because if I don't believe I will go to hell. It's never said in our tradition that if you don't believe you go to hell. If you don't believe you should just ask and clarify the doubt which you have and get rid of the doubt. And if you're not satisfied, go to somebody else and you will get the proper explanation. And it's based on logic. Yeah, there are some certain things which we cannot prove by logic and by experiment. Definitely. But still they are very logical and they are very structural. And it's not against, it's very interesting. Zilajiva Goswami in Tatva Sandarbha, he explains that the main pramana, the main means of knowing the truth is shabda, revelation. But then he says, and there are subsidiary there are secondary means for knowing the truth because how you can know the truth about spiritual matters you cannot know it by your senses you cannot know by logic the only thing the only method or the process by which you can know something about transcendental matters is what is revealed in the scriptures but then he says very interestingly He says that still Pratyaksha and Anumana, the experimentation or our sensual confirmation and logic, they should also play a very important role. And if there is, they have to be there. They have to confirm. And then he says that there is a lot of, that all these transcendental things, they manifest to our senses and we can have some experimental proof of this. He says that, you know, he gives certain examples like he explains that Ayurveda that's a good example and Shilajivu Goswami himself gives this example he says nobody knows what Pitta, Kapha and Vata really is in reality you cannot really identify this as a substance still experimentally it works the whole system really works if you apply the science properly in the same way spiritual science also even though it operates with some terms or categories which are not really available directly to our senses still we can see how it works so we don't have to believe blindly but the proper face proper reverence should be there today when Maharaj came to me Rama Bhadrapani knows who he is and he told me a beautiful story really beautiful story I was enthralled how this Vedic science works so he said he was a temple president somewhere in Mumbai and there were some difficulties with the construction of the temple and he decided just to check one Nadi astrologer who some Agusti astrologer who just to check and he was not really sure whether it's true or not all these strange things so he came to an astrologer and the astrologer identified by his thumb identified his chart and then he chapped, he said this is the name of your mother this is the name of your father, this is the time of your birth, he said everything correctly and then he starts reading what is there in the chart and the first thing which he said is that he is coming to ask something about the temple. And tell him to go back and to come back only on Rahini Nakshatra which is Nakshatra of Krishna after offering lamp to Krishna and begging forgiveness because he didn't come to know the truth he came to check you and therefore don't tell him anything. So he went away with a lot of conviction, offered lamp to Krishna, begged forgiveness, came back and got the reading. So Krishna knows what he's doing. And he knows how to dissipate our doubts. Yes? I have two questions. These are from your lectures, which you've been online, When you mention about Shardha, Shardha means not to have a faith in them, those who have experienced. Shardha means to personally experience the emotions of the bhakti. Then one remains fixed on a path of bhakti level. Can we repeat again? Like Shaddha means, you explained that time, that just suppose someone has a faith. I have a faith on them, those who have experience it. Okay. So that's not the proper Shaddha as compared to the... If personally the individual experiences those emotions of the body, then he will be more fixed up. Yeah, but initially to get the new experience, you need to have faith. You need to have faith in somebody who is more experienced. And therefore, it's proper. First, we see somebody and we see that he has more experience, spiritual experience, and we trust him. And by trusting him, we develop faith and we ask him what to do. And then we start acting and then we obtain faith. But ultimately, the purpose of this is to get the experience. But initially, when we don't have experience, we have to trust somebody. So therefore, Shada is trust. But it's not blind trust. Trust is never blind. Trust is the emotion which appears within our heart when we are convinced. so Srada is developing over a period of time when we see that somebody really has some spiritual experience which I want to have and therefore we develop trust in him and follow the path which he indicates to us next please give to Champaka Lata after that. Maharaj, you had mentioned that getting the mercy of a spiritual master is very tricky. One should please the spiritual master and not just keep asking for mercy. Does this imply that mercy will come without us asking for it? Or should one not ask for mercy from the spiritual master in the Abhayasthamas? We all have this experience if somebody is annoying us by asking us all the time something, we may give him something just to get rid of him because he is an annoyance. So if the disciple is an annoyance, yeah, Guru can give him something to just not to disturb his bhajana. but if Guru sees how sincerely somebody is trying to serve him without any desire to get, then he will automatically give. So it depends how intelligent you are. If you are intelligent, you will not ask. Then you will get more. One small point. If the spiritual master has physically disappeared from here? It's not a question of physical presence. Spiritual master is still there. He's still guiding. It's actually a question because spiritual master is manifestation of God. and if we if we really dedicated to spiritual master then we can see how spiritual master is guiding us even through different people like Srila Prabhupada you know some conductor in the train told him why you're distributing these magazines people will read magazines and then throw them in the garbage you should read books and the Prabhupada's reaction was this is my spiritual master is talking to me he didn't take it lightly he didn't take you know who you think you are I am a pure devotee no his reaction was my spiritual master is talking to this person because he was so sensitive to feel how this and therefore he could feel the guidance of God which is coming through his spiritual master manifested in different ways. Yes. So, yesterday you explained that Lohkika Shraka is based in some miracles and some superstition. But when I think of Shastriya Shraka or when I think of Krishna consciousness it seems like a lot of our Krishna consciousness is based in miracle. Even the fact that we're all here and we're trying to practice Vishnu consciousness is because we felt something. And if we think what is a miracle, it's something that cannot be explained by laws of nature or science. And I find myself, even though I try to understand and I study Shastra, but I'm so dependent on some miracle to feel something, not just understand something with my mind. so is it wrong to kind of, I find myself I chant and I think you know Krishna if you just give me a moment where I feel something it will make all of my material desires naturally go away a little bit more and a little bit more and with these little moments we can deepen our practice so is it wrong to think that I pray for that There are good miracles and bad miracles. The miracles which you are mentioning is good miracles, no problem. Yeah, we definitely... We definitely... See, this is the difference. miracles are very important for those people who have Shastri Ashrada and miracles are important for those people who have Logik Ashrada but the difference between them any person who pursues spiritual life who practices some spiritual practice, he hopes for miracles, definitely, we want to interact with the highest forces, we want to feel the presence of Krishna in our life The difference is that those who have strong Shastri Esrada, they hope for miracles, but they are not dependent on miracles. Whether miracles happen or not, they still practice. And when miracles don't happen, then they practice even harder than when the miracles happen. Because they understand, yes, something is wrong with me. And when the miracles comes, they feel it as a sign of love of God. He noticed me. He is not indifferent to me. But for people who don't have strong Shastri Ashrada, they're very much dependent on miracle. If miracle doesn't happen, then why should I practice? They're more or less blackmailing God. if you're not showing a miracle what kind of god you are so they become completely demotivated and if miracle doesn't happen then they kind of concoct miracle, they agitate themselves and then they imagine some miracle to happen or whatever it is so there is a difference so this good miracles no problem yes okay yes I have a lot of doubts about chanting So we are always encouraged to chant with a group of devotees. But something that I have actually read that Sanatana said mantra should not be revealed. And it's mostly unsick and anything else which is archaic or all, preparing garlic for the It's considered that, because Niva, which can be done with a group of devotees. But Japa is actually mansi. He also goes to an extent that we are not supposed to show really our mala and our spiritual master. The name of spiritual master. So how do we understand? Because we are obviously told that chant loudly, cry like our kid cries to his mother. It's, there are different instructions for different levels of practitioners. Manasik Japa, Srila Rupagaswami very neutrally explains that there is Manasik Japa, that there is Upamsu, and then there is Vachik Japa, audible. And Srila Prabhupada, he stressed that in the beginning, our chanting should be audible, because in the beginning our mind is too loud and we have to loudly say the holy name to kind of overcome the loud voice of our mind. But when the mind becomes a little more quiet, the changing in the mind is definitely an authorized process. and when we are together with a group of devotees it helps us externally see mantra should not be revealed but holy name is not mantra, holy name is the name we should not pronounce loudly Gayatri mantra it's not like in a beach in Goa where you know The mantras are loudly chanted. It's useless. It doesn't, it's not the proper culture. So mantras should not be chanted loudly. But holy name can be chanted loudly and should be chanted loudly. When we chant kirtan, we loudly chant. And when we chant japa, we can also loudly chant. but at one point we don't have to do it loudly. And it very much depends on individual taste. If you feel more immersion into chanting Japa when you are alone, then there is no need for you to be with other devotees. But if you feel more enlivened in the presence of other devotees, seeing how they are trying to concentrate and trying to do it properly, then it's very good to chat together with them. And in Raj, there are many caves, like holes in the earth where great devotees would go to be free from disturbances, like Bugarba Goswami. Bugarba Goswami, he's called Bugarba because he was under the surface of earth. he was mostly practicing japa underneath the earth because he didn't want to be disturbed but we are not Pugarbha Goswami's yet so we should not imitate I guess we should finish for now oh ok I saw the sign of desperation ok ok yes ok Yes. Yes. Kumaraj, I had a question about Bhaktamal. So we learned from Bhaktamal about how different bhaktas have achieved the love of God. And most of the Kathas focus on nurturing the bhava, in terms of nurturing the bhava. The Lord is Bhavgare Janardana. So, nurturing the bhava, so when we look at Kathas of Gora Kumbha, Bulsidasi, or Mirabai, or various different charitas that we can see, they're all focused on nurturing the bhava to achieve that prema. Even the gopis of Rindavan, and the question I have is, I don't see that I have studied sastras as scientifically as we go in detail, but the major focus remains on actually nurturing the power. So what should be more important? Is it that Japa leads you to power? First of all, these people were very knowledgeable. They studied sastras. You shouldn't worry about them. They knew Sanskrit, they get the proper education. They did study Shastra. The Shastra was the common foundation for anyone in Vedic culture. Definitely, Mirabai was from a very cultured tradition. And Tulsidas was also very knowledgeable. Sometimes it's not mentioned in Bhaktamala because the Bhaktamala biographies, biographical sketches are very short. So it's not repeated all the time, but the very fact that Tulsi Das wrote such beautiful compositions means that he was very, very knowledgeable. so the knowledge is necessary but it should not be of course it's not the end in itself knowledge creates certain foundation upon which we should build by properly practicing so why do we need knowledge we need knowledge actually to practice properly ultimately you are right the emphasis should be not on knowledge itself but on the proper intense practice but the point is that you can only practice intensely without deviations without distractions in your mind if you're completely convinced inside so this conviction is there to help you to concentrate on following the practice so that's how it works it's not the end in itself it's just a means to help us to concentrate and if you can concentrate on practice without knowledge no problem good luck so do it but in a normal case we need to be fixed by studying Shastra ok the last one of multiple elements. I have a small question about the story which you mentioned about the disciple who got re-initiated another guru. He was not re-initiated. He got the second initiation and he got the first initiation from Nirajan Marathi and he wanted he developed very strong faith in Gorgavinda Maharaj. And Nirajan Maharaj said to this particular person, you can go to him and get from him, you know, don't consider me. And when Gorgavinda Maharaj met him, he said, no, no, Nirajan Maharaj is still your guru, he's your Nama guru and I'll give you a picture. So, and he very strongly insisted that Nirajan Maharaj is still your guru and you should maintain proper disciple relationship with him. Oh, Sissampada. Yeah. So this is an anecdote in the sense that it's a rare occasion. It should not be there. And therefore the second guru became very afraid that he committed aparata. Therefore he came and And he started begging forgiveness. But the first Guru said, no problem, let's pull him out together. But definitely it's against the etiquette, but some exceptions could be there. Okay, thank you very much. Shilaprabhu Padukhi.